They think it's all over ... it is now

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p368471622Update: fixing broken links

Last Friday I got the metro back from buying some winter stuff and sat down in front of the entrance to Zhongshan Park to have a quick drink. The air was crisp and chilly. My girlfriend turned to me and said, "Hey, where's Haibao?" Yes, the near omnipresent statue of Haibao had gone, and by Sunday night the Expo would be over.  

Here's what I wrote before it all started in full:

So, welcome to the piece where I give my take on the scene and how it has been affected by the Expo. Now, both the Expo and the scene mean different things to different people. So welcome to the defining of the terms.

The scene
The music scene can sometimes be thought of as the sum of all events related to music available in the city at any given point and can include industry built around it. Not here though. I write about the underground indie scene in Shanghai. It is characterized by a lack of functioning industry and a suspicious and authoritarian approach from government. I write about local youths who work to create their own culture outside of the mainstream using genres like punk, rock and indie music. I write about subculture. I write about identity and expression. You will find reviews of Chaos Mind playing Yuyintang. You will not find a DJ playing DKD, a promoter whose primary goal is 'a party' or a Jazz band playing a function. 

Talking of Yuyintang, the scene I speak of most commonly manifests itself in shows at Yuyintang and Mao, which I always use as case studies.
The Expo
I'm British and all dissent should start at home, so it's fitting that the perfect symbol of the Expo for me was the U.K. Pavilion. The U.K. pavilion was a chilling vision of a dystopian future that is just around the corner. A sterile seed museum sat on a vast slab of concrete next to a river so polluted that drinking from it would kill you. You had to pay to see it, despite it being publically subsidized, and to top it off it was unironically reported by a sycophantic media as a victory for progressive attitudes towards culture and the environment. If you looked upon this spectacle without horror then you have fully internalized the principles of doublespeak propaganda, greenwash and corporate culture. Wikipedia confuses that last one. I mean large powerful organisations such as governments and corporations pushing their own interests as 'culture' - not organizational theory.

And now ... 

The Premise
(clears throat) ... The Shanghai scene is significantly worse off at the end of the Expo. This has been as a result of the Expo, both its primary and secondary effects. However, the Expo is not the only one to blame. The scene's own reaction to this has been a major factor including short-sighted and unscrupulous actions from promoters and venues, fledgling commercial exploitation of a tiny, fragile scene and complacency across the board.

And on we go. 

The facts of the matter. 2007-2009 was characterised by steady growth on the scene with Yuyintang forming the centre and 0093 giving new bands a platform to develop. The community focused attitudes and solidarity around the scene led to a situation where the better local bands could fill a venue with mainly local fans and a name band from Beijing would blow the roof off. At the height of this period, the 90's generation crowd behind SOMA records felt ready to invest in a Shanghai Mao Livehouse - a state of the art venue good for 800+ people. 0093 studios were even in negotiation to open an indie music outlet in the Channel One Mall. 

At that time, a good night at Yuyintang would see 3-400 people arrive and a real event would simply fill it to capacity and beyond. Examples: the Mushroom's shows last summer that packed the place out with a crowd of mainly younger dedicated locals who wore the shirts and sung along to the songs. A real fan base. The Retros show that had as many people listening from the park out back as there were inside the venue. 

And now. From my own direct experience, and from talking it through with the Yuyintang owners and staff: a night described as a 'good night' this year would have seen around 200 people in the venue and been over 60-70% party types, internationals and other transients. Homegrown bands headlining shows were outnumbered by international acts also and the local audiences from previous years stayed away, as opposed to being excited by or influenced by those shows.

There you have it.

0093 had already closed down and relocated unsuccessfully by the start of the Expo. The landlord evicted them quoting skyrocketing property costs and unwanted extra attention, both down to the Expo. The 0093 site was close to the Expo site on the north side. Other well documented and raged about secondary effects of the Expo, on the popular Chinese forums such as KDS, MOP and Tianya, were cost of living and housing destroying the chances of young graduates and white collar workers to make a life, forced relocations, traffic and pollution chaos in the two year run up, a roll back of rights and freedoms, increased censorship of the media and the internet and massive wasting of tax money. I wish I could reference all these but the man employed armies of net censors to constantly erase all trace of them from the net forums. You could try searching the 'tent guy' who protested on a Shanghai subway platform, it slipped into the print media. 

Case in point, reading the opening links will remind you that punk band Top Floor Circus were called in by the police and banned for a year for their song Shanghai doesn't welcome you that referenced all the above issues. The song and video in question was then removed from the net. As a result of that, and TFC's planned gig at Mao, Mao Livehouse had already been visited, warned and cowed well in advance of the Expo start date. An aside to the last paragraph, a quick read around will tell you that no Expo or Olympics has ever ... ever turned a profit or provided a significant trickle down and that the issues accompany every one. Beijing 2008 was a shining example of that with hotels and local business laying off staff in the run up. 

Yuyintang were subjected to constant harassment from start to finish. Everything happened. Raids, cancellations and short notice re-scheduling. Sound boards being confiscated. The web site being ordered closed. Shows monitored by undercover cops. Two months of shows being pushed back to ten P.M. start times - crucial considering that the main band has to be on by ten to not cut out younger locals who rely on public transport. At one point all venues had to take down their entire catalogue of event pages, proving that Douban is monitored in detail. And let's be clear about the usual excuses: The process of licenses and permits are unreasonable, convoluted, ambiguous and near impossible to get on purpose, so venues can never be in a defensible legal position. This allows the man to carry out the usual policy of politically motivated clampdowns while banning mention of the true motives. 

During this period, promoters and venues seemed to cling to the idea of getting what they could from the party crowd that was turning up. Ticket prices for gigs went up. The cut off point for the local audience of previous years seemed to be about 40 RMB but average ticket prices were over 60 and went as high as 150. That killed off what of the previous support was left. Rare shows that momentarily recaptured the local feel of older shows were all priced at 40 or below, I should mention. Also, the seeming lack of concern about this degeneration let the gap go on too long and as the Expo wound down, the younger local audiences were not coming back. By coincidence, around the same time branding and ad people moved in more than ever, diverting the energies of bands into promotional activities that have brought little lasting effect for the bands involved. There was a distinct lack of effort from homegrown bands to make up for the shortfall in the scene in other ways, or was it simply apathy in the face of the Expo situation? Take Pinkberry. Sure they disappeared into Dickies land but at the start of the summer they recorded an EP with their new label and organized a much anticipated launch party at Yuyintang, where it all began for them - only for it to be closed down by the police. Who can blame them for just leaving it until the Expo was done. A sudden burst of paying gigs out of town through festivals provided many bands the opportunity to avoid the issue too. 

Here's a thought. If Brands want to really support the scene, who's going to step up and sponsor an 0093 type affordable, multi-room, equipped rehearsal space for young bands? How about the Converse Bunker? 

I was happy to see the appropriate reaction to the Expo from some parts of the indie scene. Some bands just doubled their DIY efforts. The breakout act of the summer was Shanghai's Pairs who worked harder than anyone. Me and Jake, ahem, put on a successful avant-garde event featuring photographer Ren Hang and experimental acts Duck Fight Goose and Booji as well as resting the blogs and getting involved with some music production. I'm fucking proud to plug that. The Trash-a-Go Go collective went into overdrive and honorary local bands Fever Machine, X is Y and Rainbow Danger Club perfected their music and dragged people to their shows by any means necessary. 

But none of this changes the basic fact of audience numbers, audience make-up and the amount of local bands breaking through. It wasn't as harsh as the total shut down of the Olympics and those who thought that the Expo was simply too long to pull off a blanket ban seemed to be right. But the effects have been more damaging. The relatively short holiday of the Olympics saw everyone come back refreshed and ready for another great year, while this time it seems we have gone back three years. It remains to be seen if the changes will last beyond the end of the Expo.

Finally, a quick endnote on the fallacy of the Expo's cultural value. I write this because so many people who have commented here or mailed me in its defense have used this weird non-logic. In order for local people to be able to come to Shanghai and see a variety of world class cultural events, great art and rock shows the government only needs to not repress it. There have been people putting on shows and making art for years here and there have even been promoters like Split Works and China West working round the clock to bring in quality international acts from Oasis to Handsome Furs. If the scene was allowed to bloom, there would be great events all year round every year, at no extra cost to the tax payer. The Expo itself was culturally shallow and showy and came at the cost of further crackdowns on the actual arts scene. You don't need to bring anything, it's already here, just stop restricting it in a draconian way. The Expo was about controlling culture.

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Awesome article Andy. Hit the nail on the head. When I have some time, I will be doing something similar on the Radar, but in the meantime, I will be drawing attention this this here encapsulation...

Love your work

One question: did you ever actually go to the Expo?

I've been arguing against the cultural value of the Expo for so long that my throat hurts - now I'll just be directing everyone to this post. Well played sir.

Thanks for the comments everyone.

Hi Selina. At this blog we usually focus on the issues or the facts at hand, not on personal attacks or diversions.

Which part of the article don't you agree with? Do you feel any of the numbers were incorrect? Which shows were on at the Expo that you feel could not have been put on here by locally based promoters at any given time?

It seems you are suggesting that there were events that I didn't see in person, that I've missed something? Please name it/them. Use the comments to add something we don't know about or to make your own point.


Andy - I was just wondering if your very strong opinions about the Expo had been shaped by a visit to it. How that could be construed as a personal attack is beyond me. Sincere question, that's all.

Selina, which part of the article are you referring to?

Personal attack is one of the options there, not all of them. I think the piece speaks for itself, unless you want to take issue with a specific part. Or give your own contrary take.

Andy - Your reluctance to answer a very simple question - did you actually bother to attend the event which you criticize in such over-the-top terms? - tells me that you didn't. But more than that, your reluctance to answer such a simple question tells me something else: that arguments against something are undermined if you don't have direct experience of it.

Of course, that's the nature of the internet: strongly opinionated people getting the chance to sound off on things about which they are ignorant, or of which they lack direct experience. Then to be joined by a chorus of the equally ignorant.

Of course, if you attended the Expo, and any of the cultural events, I'd be happy to know about it.

As for me, I worked for one of the national pavilions, and among my duties was helping to coordinate a robust cultural program. Among the shows we brought in were traditional performers who had never left their home country, and whom drew small audiences that would not have been economically self-sustaining if the performers had not been subsidized by our cultural program. They performed at the Expo and, with our help, they performed in secondary and tertiary cities, including schools and universities. It was an eye-opening opportunity for these performers and for their audiences, I believe. Certainly, it was the sort of thing that required a subsidy. Indeed, they require subsidies in their home country as well. I have no idea if you take an interest in indigenous performers but I'd like to think that - politics of Expo aside - you might've enjoyed and even been moved by these performers.

And our pavilion was one of only dozens who sponsored performances like these. Canada, Colombia, Peru, Mexico, Chile, South Korea, and others off the top of my head made a concerted effort to bring over indigenous, traditional performers who'd never left their home countries, and lacked economically self-sustaining audiences in China.

Did you bother to go and see any of these? Did you go to the Expo? And why is it so hard for you to answer that question?

andy I thought the expo was shit too and i agree with you 100%. but i think selina is right that if you're going to take the piss at something then you ought to say whether you actually went or if it's just coming out your arse. so i'm with selina: did you go???

andy I thought the expo was shit too and i agree with you 100%. but i think selina is right that if you're going to take the piss at something then you ought to say whether you actually went or if it's just coming out your arse. so i'm with selina: did you go???


Whether you had a good time or not doesn't change it. You were involved in a tightly controlled prestige event run by an authoritarian government. It has gone, the pollution is back and the scene is worse.

If you think me not answering your question invalidates the fact of the article, that's fine. But I'm not getting involved with "playing the man."

My article is there. Your ambiguous comment which doesn't mention your pavilion or event in name is there. People can read both and make up their own minds.

Dixon, I'm not 'taking the piss' out of the Expo. Everything there is serious. If you think the article sounds like it's just raving opinion that's fine. I'm happy that it stands on logic and enough data/analysis.

Alright, I've tried to mail you this first but it seems the mail you left with the post isn't valid:


I'm doing my best not to get personal. I understand that you feel you did some great work at the Expo and that if you read a negative view of the Expo, you may take that personally and feel angry. I'm sorry about that.

But, by making the point that some tourists got to see a dance troupe is somehow a response to my article you are going into dream land. I'm not sure you have even read the whole article in detail - I'm not sure you are even aware of the local music scene. I'm not sure you know the state of local (natural) environment and how the Expo has had zero long term effect on it.

If you tried to make this point as an actual debate-point, against the content of my article, it would have to be something like this:

Expo visitors got to see some dance troupes - and therefor the police didn't raid Yuyintang, housing prices didn't rocket up, local audiences for indigenous shows are not down - in fact they're up!

Or this: Andy didn't see all the performances at the Expo - and therefor the police didn't raid Yuyintang, housing prices didn't rocket up, local audiences for indigenous shows are not down - in fact they're up!

And look, Shanghai is a green paradise too!

Utter rubbish.

The integrity of your work, and whether I went to see it, or not, has no bearing on this at all. It all happened. The net effect of the Expo has been bad for people here. It's serious and it always happens when you roll with big government.

Andy -

Can't decide whether it's funny or pathetic that you refuse to answer the simple question: did you go?

Man up, or shut up. It's that simple. Did you go? Did you go? Did you go? Why is that so hard to answer?

Great post, Andy, and sorry for not commenting sooner. (Bad at remembering passwords...) I agree completely, and you have summed it up expertly.

Too bad about the distraction in comments. It is entirely irrelevant whether Andy went to the Expo, his analysis here has zero relation to, and is not impacted by, the quality of the Expo itself as an event. It's about what happened within the city due to six months of Lala Land, not about Lala Land itself. It's similar to defending the bad design of the US Pavilion by saying the China one looked great.

That the Expo's impact on Shanghai arts and culture, indie music included, was a net negative, is unrelated to whether the Expo itself sucked (which, in my opinion, and I went six times, it largely did). There is a separate point to be made about whether the cost to the arts here, and other problems it brought, are balanced out overall by the prestige and the tourism dollars and the infrastructure, but that is not the conversation here.

The sole point that I would quibble is that it is hard to know how much of the censorship and shutdowns, beyond Dingma, was due to Expo per say. Because China/Shanghai censors enthusiastically anyway. Another art thing might get shuttered this weekend, I just heard. On it goes.

Thanks for elucidating all this so well. I couldn't agree more that, while international imports are great to have, we all lose if they crowd out the development of local talent. So, man up, and don't tell us whether or not you went to the SB Hui - because it utterly doesn't matter.


Exactly. Selina doesn't get it because she has no answer to the points in the article, nor anything to add herself in relation to the actual topic.

@Selina - what you are saying is that you think my article is misinformed and not true. That me not answering your question here invalidates the whole thing.

I suppose that would be nice for you. But, someone could have written about, for example, 0093's re-location, from the North Pole and it would still be fact that you could check. It's not opinion. The net effect of the Expo on local culture was negative.

Quite the write up of observations and opinions.

I didn't go to the Expo. It just didn't interest me. Mainly because the mascot is the worst creation ever and infected the city like mold on bread. With that being said, the following is strictly based on personal observations and experiences.

I’m simply going to comment on the crowds that did, or should I say didn’t, show up to many of the shows over the past six months. I browsed through the events that were at YYT over the past 6 months, and out of about 113 show, less than half (about 40) were over 40rmb. The ones that were over 40rmb were mostly out of town acts with many of them being international. So the ticket prices weren’t out of reach for most of the local crowd according to the article.

While the Expo was in session, so was summer vacation. Many people, locals and foreigners alike, left Shanghai to go home and to travel. This took away some of the support of the music scene. It also took away band members, which in effect, put a pause on any given bands live performances. While the glorious Expo was in session, so was the World Cup for a brief period of time. This event, which happens once every four years, also took away a lot of the crowd briefly.

Then there’s the most annoying problem, the fuzz. They kept putting pressure on venues, as already stated, under the guise of the mighty Expo. I’m skeptical to believe that the Expo was the real reason for many of the problems that venues faced. But since the Expo has been underway, it’s the perfect excuse for greedy persons in positions of authority to squeeze these venues and flex their muscles. As said by a friend in regards to a more likely situation, “says the fuzz, ‘The wife wants that new necklace. Let’s go give YYT some trouble.’”

As for lOgO, well, common sense would dictate that they were just a shutdown waiting to happen. Honestly, the location put it in its grave before it was dug. Expo or not, they were going to be closed down. The neighbors have made sure that happens.

With all of these circumstances and irregular problems coming and going, it would make it hard for one to dictate whether or not it would be worth it to go out and check out the music. It’s kind of like being in a routine of say, exercise. Once you’re in the routine, it’s easy to do, but if you screw up the routine, it takes time to get back into the groove of things. That’s all it’s going to take. People just need to get back into the groove.

As for the lack of effort from homegrown bands to make up for the shortfall in the scene, well, I disagree with this statement. There were actually very few bands that altogether stopped playing because of the Expo. The only one I can think of right now is the unfortunate case of Top Floor Circus. But we already know that story. Aside from playing shows, there’s not much else bands can do to bump up the scene. Being in a band is usually something that is done along with having a day job. It would be unreasonable to expect the bands, which also need to work to support themselves, to go crazy and focus all of their time and energy on promoting the, at the time, dwindling scene.

As for the bands “avoiding the issue [of the Expo]” by playing in out of town festivals, I think this is a misleading statement. I’d be willing to bet that most of the bands that participated in these festivals would do it again, Expo or not. It wasn’t a case of avoiding the Expo. It was simply a case of an opportunity arising and taking advantage of it. If there’s another influx of festivals next summer, I wouldn’t be surprised if you see a similar response from the local talent here if they’re invited to participate again.

In regards to all the other things that were stated, nice write up. It was a good read.

Hi Bren

Thanks for the long comment. And the extra analysis.

The upping of crackdowns during high profile events is a proven pattern that has repeated itself for the ten years that I have been here. Whether through opportunism or by order, the fact that they come with the Expo makes them because of the Expo. That and the fact that the Yuyintang cases I mention involved not only police 'visits' but a continuing dialogue and several meetings with the cultural office in which they cited the Expo as the reason directly. There's no speculation. It's a fact.

I didn't mention Logo in the article, did I?. Two reasons, yes, they were under pressure anyway for other reasons, and two, they were largely a site for party goers, mainly ex-pats and a testing ground for the international side of the scene. They barely registered on the Shanghainese side of the scene, if you see what I mean, in their entire time of being open. They have never been anything like a YYT or even a pre-YYT Harleys, a Brad era Live Bar or what have you. It's just different things. Ironically, the one time they did a local stylee show around the opening of the Expo was Cassette, hmmnn, do you remember what happened?

The ticket prices. Oh I just counted in shows/days that previously attracted the larger local crowds I mentioned. Like basically Fri-Sun. Perhaps you could blog an alternative breakdown somewhere, cheers? Or mail it to me and I'll post it.Did you count free Wednesdays?

Bren, In your analysis, it's a natural downswing, mainly due to summer hols and the disappearance of a devoted local fanbase is because they love football and are a bit lazy. Local bands aren't playing as many decent headlining show because some ex-pats can't buy a convenience store beer on Xingfu Road due to noise complaints.

I don't buy it.

But we must go into the ticket price stats in more detail, like you have, and get it posted.

Great revue Andy and reflects observations of someone who isn’t a “scene insider” and also answers a few of the questions I have that have been bubbling up the past month or so. Excuse the long reply by the way!

First disclaimer – I didn’t go, I will admit I was pretty interested in the lead up as the idea of spending a day wandering around looking at how different countries contributed, visiting different pavilions, eating different food etc seemed pretty appealing. That naivety was shattered in the first week when a friend went and reported a slightly different experience. Without going in to details as they aren’t relevant to your post her comments about the French Pavilion were basically “one giant LV store”. Still, loads of people went, other friends have gone back multiple times and others have said “rubbish”. The economic benefits can be debated elsewhere but I would suggest that from that general point of view expo would be considered a success. My very selfish point of view is the impact it had on day to day life here pissed me off more and more over time (a view shared I think by a lot of taxi drivers) but I guess you could say it was a great success for Shanghai in general.

I think your last paragraph about cultural value could be debated, whether you or I regard a bunch of Finnish ice-skating dancing girls dressed in corporate colours singing ABBA songs (I might have made that up) to be of cultural value doesn’t mean someone else doesn’t think it’s the greatest artistic movement of the 21st century. There was a non-stop program of stuff at the performance venue that I had no interest in seeing but using numbers quoted on CMR it seems in the first 60 days 450,000 people disagreed with our view. No one is going to debate that the opportunity for local Shanghai culture was rather limited to say the least (I have no idea about the facts here but would suspect that close to zero may be a better estimate) however it was a World Expo, not a Shanghai one and the intent was to bring performers from all over the world to China. Shanghai does now have a quite incredible performance centre that will remain although again, it is unlikely to be of much interest to local bands but it does seem that some of the first events to be held here post-expo will be popular music – Wang Fei and Jacky Cheung. Not my cup of tea but all the tickets have been sold and both are doing a long series of shows.

So after a whole load of possibly not relevant to your point comments some observations purely from my pov on impact on the local music scene. Disclaimer number two, I have been traveling like an idiot for the past 7 months so didn’t get to many shows during that time.

1. Where did all the great local bands go? If I think back to last year there were weekends where choices had to be made.

2. There were at times this year entire weeks (my perception, not backed by fact) that YYT seemed to have overseas acts with little or no local support bands. I am all for overseas acts playing, big names bring in people who otherwise wouldn’t go to underground venues, what does bother me is it appears that there is little benefit to the local scene.

3. There has been(?) a move of focus from the centre to the suburbs / closer to the universities by local bands.

4. In contrast to the local acts disappearing there seems to be an increase in expat bands (I don't have anything against expat bands btw , just an observation).

5. Mao seems to have be moving to techno and parties and has close to given up on promotion or maintaining their site or their douban pages.

6. YYT seem to be doing a monstrous amount of regular maintenance to their web site (that is irony by the way).

I’m not a sociologist but there does seem to have been a big change and as I haven’t been propping up the bar at YYT so much this year seems even more pronounced. There are a load of factors that could have influenced this state; the need to make a living and the stupid cost of living in shanghai, personal conflict within bands, relationships and the pressure they can create, limited options for performing, limited returns, the impact of having to play late and lug your kit back and forth all the time, limited options to rehearse and record, seasonal trends, etc.

All the above however existed in the past, these are just the normal strains and constraints that local bands face here and anywhere to varying degrees. I don’t think it a huge risk to suggest that the one big difference this year was down to the direct and more so indirect effects of hosting Expo. You’ve listed and recorded some of the more bizarre events that have put serious pressure on local music like the YYT closed/opened/closed/maybe open/hanging in there stubbornly mayhem that various outside agents created. The general air of excitement that existed prior to expo seems to have been, whilst not crushed, definitely deflated and replaced by a sense of nervousness and apprehension. Under those conditions it is hardly a surprise that things have slowed down and hard working artists have decided that things were way too hard to bother.

It remains to be seen what will happen now we are back to normal(ish). As you pointed out it hasn’t all been doom and gloom and it is clear some pretty good things have happened this year. In particular as it wasn’t mentioned in your post the creation of the new label Zhu Lu He Feng that pulled a few of the local bands together, got recording and started doing University and other gigs. As a non-insider my view is this year was a (big) hiccup in the maturation of the local music scene, what I have seen here is a pretty awesome little scene with some incredible support driven by some really talented and committed people. My hope is we see not just a recovery but a post-expo hangover reaction that sees local music not just return but return with a bang. And what better way to celebrate the end of expo than the White Eyes show, I really can’t think of a better riposte by indie music to the past 6 months of Expo’s mediocrity.

Final note, way back before the big event I replied to one of your posts about expo suggesting that rather than a negative impact there would be a small positive one. I was absolutely, completely and utterly wrong.

Good article, a very interesting read indeed.

However, your failure in answering Selina's simple question made the impact of your words so much smaller. Seeing you accusing her of an personal attack, and then keep avoiding the question with alot words around it made me think about how a certain government is handling criticism. You are uncomfortably close.

But one thing boggles my mind. It might be that there is a good scene there, I have not been there for a long enough time to tell. But I have heard some of the bands. And I have to say some bands mentioned here, Pinkberry and The Mushrooms in particular, are some of the more generic crap I have heard. I fail to see the difference between these, and for example Busted, seeing as you are from the UK. Now, they might be more "indie", of course. But the music, which is all that matters in the end, is certainly not much to write home about. Generic and shallow like your average pop-music on the radio, there is nothing wrong with that if that is your cup of tea, but how these bands can represent an underground indie-scene is beyond me.

Hi Brett

Selina didn't have a relevant point about the article content at all. And I clearly said attack or diversion. If you think that me not answering it lessens the reported facts of the article or in some way makes them not have happened - then there's nothing I can do really.

I give my full real name and contacts on my blog and therefor with every article I post. The articles reference real events, facts and link things I talk about where possible. I have open comments where people's criticisms and additions are never deleted or changed so all, like yourself in this case, can see and make up their own mind who is right. When comments give articulate points of view or point to more investigation I will repost them as new posts or updates too - I've done it twice already on this article, as you'll see if you check the newer posts.

Likening that to how the gov operates here, in any way, is f*cking ludicrous and offensive.

As for the genres and the scene. Please read the posts and the blog properly. As I've pointed out - there is no wide reaching industry or law regarding music production here. And, reaction to efforts to establish it are draconian and suspicious at best. Everyone making their own music is underground by default, be it Pinkberry, who recently cited Avril as an influence in an interview for a Dickies promotion, or be it Top Floor Circus who got called in by the cops for performing an anti=Expo song. All in the same boat.

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This page contains a single entry by Andy Best published on November 2, 2010 3:04 AM.

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